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Is The N Y State Thoroughbred Breeders Program Really The Best State Bred Program?

Posted Tuesday March 3, 2009 10:19:09 AM EDT

While it is advertised to be the best State Thoroughbred Breeders program, NY fell short in our poll  as many have said that NY Breds really don't start with as much as an advantage as some of the other States in our poll!  Many have written and have ideas of their own on how to make the program better.  Will the VLT's and subsequent revenue be the panacea for the program?  Will the VLT'S ever really get installed?  We want to know what you think about the NY Breeders Program! 

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Comment by llsal
I am a small breeder in NYS and have some serious issues with the breeding program. Little by little the small breeding farm is being squeezed out. Almost every one of the big stallion farms send their good mares out of state to either Kentucky or Florida to be bred to the top stallions in that state and return here to foal and they have a NYBred. When you ha horses bred by local stallions and then have to compete against some of the best bred horses around you won't stand much of a chance. Also one of the bloggers stated that there should be races strickly for horses bred by NY stallions, there are but they do not have to be NYBreds, just sired a a NY stallion. Can go back to Kentucky to foal and come back here to race. Until NY changes its breeding laws there will always be the problem of big farms hurting the little guy. I put a weanling colt in the Oct. sales, did not get a bid, cost me $1,400.00 all told. Put the horse for sale on the internet and sold him within a month
Sunday March 22, 2009 10:15:01 PM EDT

Comment by citation
i an very shoked to see that new tok is not number 1 or 2 on this poll. i think that ny is a good program gone bad and without the same leadership or creativity of some other state. they should hire an ad ageny and pr firm and take this program to the level it deserves. hire somone from pa!
Tuesday March 10, 2009 11:10:46 PM EDT

Comment by wind
I worked as the Farm manager/farm trainer for a Farm in NVA that bred nothing but NY Breds. It has been awhile since I worked there having moved on to MD as an Assistant Trainer to 3 of the better trainers at Laurel only to leave the track about 5 1/2 years ago. I've since moved to PA, own a mare and she's in foal to Request For Parole. I bred to race but am selling the foal as a yearling in 2010 ( mare is due to foal in April) I got a great deal because we're foaling her in PA. The purses because of the VLT's in PA , PA Breds are starting to be the up and coming at the sales. Of course the current economy is hurting everyone but when things start straightening out, I'd rather have a PA bred than anything else.

NY has a lot of turmoil but it does have a very good program. When I managed that NVA farm every quarter we'd get checks that would pay the feed bill for the month from horses we hadn' t owned in years. I can't wait for the same thing with the PA program..........
Thursday March 5, 2009 6:59:23 PM EDT

Comment by mousse
The posting by "prf" factually addressed the requirements of NY bred criteria. But what was not mentioned was the increasing number of mares that are being sent out-of-state (i.e. Kentucky) to be bred and returned to NY immediately upon pregnancy confirmation.
Also, other than the THOROPAC stallion auction-which was shrouded in so much controversey the past years that it had to be "farmed out" to an online site for this year-their has not been one progressive innitiative implemented by NYTB or presented to the Fund for approval.
The sales company has also had it's share of questionable practices in it's short existance ranging from administrative conflicts of interests to shady dispersals and bidding coups.
The comment re the VLT"s is either incredibly niave or "prf" is drinking the Bogdan kool-aid. It is EIGHT years and counting since the statute was signed into law and as of this month we are still at ground zero. In fact things have progressed to the point that Del North is quietly looking to either amend their proposal with the state or simply let it drift off into the black hole of NY politics.
Bye the way, one of my mares is an A++ nick with Chief Seattle who I can't get even get a nibble on. Great program!!!!

Thursday March 5, 2009 6:53:35 PM EDT

Comment by joebbq
This blog smells fishy. I am in serious doubt that we even have multiple people who have commented.

I believe its very blatant that someone has a horse that is invaluable and they are looking to point the finger at everyone else involved. As we anyone with glasses that is reading can see.
Thursday March 5, 2009 6:41:48 PM EDT

Comment by marestation
mousse you are right on! "prf''s post is typical of the attitude that is prevalent at the NYTBreeders in which they preach the VLT line and most breed there mares out of the state while being on the board of all of these NY Bred clubs. They need to notice the poll here which doesn't put them at the top of the list in the eyes of breeders. i left the ny scene because of the antiquated leadership. nothing has changed.
Thursday March 5, 2009 6:25:28 PM EDT

Comment by mousse
The posting by "prf" factually addressed the requirements of NY bred criteria. But what was not mentioned was the increasing number of mares that are being sent out-of-state (i.e. Kentucky) to be bred and returned to NY immediately upon pregnancy confirmation.
Also, other than the THOROPAC stallion auction-which was shrouded in so much controversey the past years that it had to be "farmed out" to an online site for this year-their has not been one progressive innitiative implemented by NYTB or presented to the Fund for approval.
The sales company has also had it's share of questionable practices in it's short existance ranging from administrative conflicts of interests to shady dispersals and bidding coups.
The comment re the VLT"s is either incredibly niave or "prf" is drinking the Bogdan kool-aid. It is EIGHT years and counting since the statute was signed into law and as of this month we are still at ground zero. In fact things have progressed to the point that Del North is quietly looking to either amend their proposal with the state or simply let it drift off into the black hole of NY politics.
Bye the way, one of my mares is an A++ nick with Chief Seattle who I can't get even get a nibble on. Great program!!!!

Thursday March 5, 2009 6:00:45 PM EDT

Comment by prf
Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of misconception in many of the comments that have been made. First, The NYS Breeding and Development Fund (the group that controls the breeder awards), is a public benefit corporation of NY that oversees the registration of NY Breds and distributes the awards. This group is totally separate from NYTB (NY Thoroughbred Breeders) which is Not for Profit corporation that is Membership based. The NY Breeders Sales Company is also a totally separate entity as a for profit corporation. While a member of NYTB may also be a shareholder in the NY Breeders Sales Company, there is no link between the organizations (no different than being a member of AARP and owning shares in a nursing home).

Next, the rules for breeding to a non-NY stallion are that either the mare needs to be a resident NY mare and return to NY within 90 after last cover or be bred back to a NY stallion. The rules are available at http://www.nybreds.com/frames/FS_rules.html

As far as the open owner awards for NY Breds, these were designed as an incentive for racehorse owners to buy a NY Bred horse. If there is no market to sell a NY Bred, breeders will have no option but to race themselves which is not always feasible.

With the prospect of VLTs on the horizon, the anticipation would be that new, higher end stallions will eventually relocate to NY. This will impact the existing NY stallion population as many of their offspring will no be competitive with the offspring of a higher end stallion. This will cause a shake out of the weaker NY stallions. Its a natural evolution and the owners of the stallions and mares that are not strong enough will either need to relocate elsewhere where they can be competitive or be taken out of service. I'm afraid that there will be stallion owners who will then want "protectionist" constraints placed upon future incoming stallions to NY but it is not in the best interests of the program which was designed to maintain farmland and green spaces.

Based upon the comments, I would assume that a number of posters are not members of NYTB. They are working to address a number of concerns through their lobbyist and suggestions to the NYS Breeding and Development Fund. For a recent update of some of these initiatives, check out http://www.nytbreeders.org/blog/
Many of the comments/suggestions provided are already being pursued. I would suggest that those who would like to have their voices heard consider joining NYTB.

The NY Breeding program will inevitably change in the near future. For those who wish to continue to be a part of this world class program adjust accordingly. We must change with the marketplace or become obsolete.
Thursday March 5, 2009 12:25:15 PM EDT

Comment by karusha
Remember the old rules folks?... Breed to a Ky (or Fla) stallion, then drop in NY , then you HAD to breed back in NY to a NY stallion..Not too difficult....Then GOOD stallions would be more in demand here... I am an owner, breeder and farm owner in NY. Maybe the old rules would incent a better stallion band in NY...But my main compliant is The NY Breeders pay more attention to sales and racing than breeding...The incentives should be for BREEDING (and breeders) not eroding the fund by giving 10% to Winning Move and the rest of the claiming crews downstate...
Thursday March 5, 2009 6:23:31 AM EDT

Comment by marestation
Be that as it may about the sales of NY breds in the October sale, I would like to hear more about Southbelles idea of having races written for just NY Stallions or NY Stallions Preferred. That would really help I think. Also why not have non winners of 3 allowance for NY Breds as well. Low level claiming races have been a boost, but a way to get NY Stallions in the races would be a great incentive to buy a real NY Bred and not face some of the problems you guys seem to be compalining about. southbelles idea of having open company awards replaced by stallion awards for out of state wins while self serving(I think they own a few stallions), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve consideration. it would help bring more money to the farms and people who really are at the mercy of this breeding program.
Wednesday March 4, 2009 12:29:41 PM EDT

Comment by horsetrader
THE FACT IS THAT THE OCTOBER NYBSC SALE HAS PUT A BLACK EYE ON NYBREDS AND WHAT THEY ARE WORTH. AND YOU MUST KNOW THAT ITS THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE PROMISING TO MAKE NY BREDS BETTER THAT ARE PROFITING ON THE MISERY OF THE SMALL BREEDERS WHILE BREEDING THERE MARES OUTSIDE THE STATE.
Wednesday March 4, 2009 11:52:59 AM EDT

Comment by mousse
I bred my mares to, and supported NY stallions for several years. I bred to the top Stallions in the state (Distinctive Pro, Gold Fever, etc.) My mares were decent alowance runners and produced nice looking babies. As yearlings Fasig-Tipton would scoff at their pedigree saying their was "no market" for that type of individual in August. The October sale which was initially thought of as an outlet for the middle to lower end of the market has been an abject failure.
I moved on and raced them myself. Race after race I would find my horses competing against NY breds sired by some of the leading stallions in the country (Distorted Humor , Giants Causeway, Quiet American to name a few). This made it very difficult to be successful. As a result I was being squeezed and had to seek other venues outside of NY in which to race thus forfeiting any chance of earning awards. So the program certainly was of little benefit to my operation.
Other items regarding the program that should be made known is that over 1/3 of races at NYRA are for NY Breds who make up about 35% of the racing population. Combine that with the Finger Lakes contingent of NY Bred races and runners and you can see why the Fund has elimated 4th place award elligibility and now witholds 30%, all or part of which you may or may not receive.
The organizational institutions representing us are a disfunctional, powerless, inept group who look to serve their own interests. Innovation and creativity are lost on these groups (esp NYTB) and as a result the program has spiraled in a direction that favors only the wealthiest.
Breeding and racing these critters is a daunting task. The program was put in place to be beneficial and entice participation unfortunately just the opposite is evolving.


Wednesday March 4, 2009 11:44:12 AM EDT

Comment by fussyone
Love this website!! Bought a Stallion Season through one of the auctions ran here and it was the best Stallion Season auction experience I ever had. It was just like an e bay transaction and worked much better than that telephone thingy that some of these charitys do, and those other websites are just not set up to do it the right way!

That said, I do breed to in New York and think the program is the best around for financial reward. i will agree that the sales compnay that the NY Thoroughbred Breeders started a few years back have hurt the program more than it helped. I offered a few horses in that sale 2 years ago, didn't get a bid and got socked for a 40 % commission. After the sale I listed the horses here and sold bothwithin 15 days. I don't know why the people running both the fund and the sale, would want to take that kind of money from us little breeders.
Tuesday March 3, 2009 11:13:53 PM EDT

Comment by marestation
I agree with southbelles post and the idea of promoting NY stallions in and out of the State is a sound idea. I bred horses in New york up until a few years ago. The award program in NY is rich and the pots are big enough to lure breeders. The problem lies in all of the organisations that seem to feed from the same feed tub. The NYBSalesCompany and the NYTBA are all inter related with the same people making all the rules and trying to make all of the money. The problem is that no one is actually trying to make the program better. Just a lot of self serving interests by a select few. Its less political elsewhere. Someday NY will have the slots and will find someone to actually run the programs with the passion that was there when the program started. Then me and my mares will return, but never to sell horses through their NYBSC subsidiary.

Tuesday March 3, 2009 11:05:37 PM EDT

Comment by southbelle
This is a good question and goes hand in hand with the qestion of whether the Funny Cide sales campaign made by the fund in their commercial ads, helped or hurt the NY Breeder. My guess is that it may have hurt the smaller breeder here in several ways, with the 2 most obvious being a) Advertising the fact that a NY stallion is inferior to the stallions being allowed to compete in the program's "dropling program" and b) in its attempt to bring awareness to the program, it advertised the loopholes that hurt breeders here as well and perhaps more importantly the farms and perferiral business. The very businesses that the fund is supposed to help support!

I still can'rt figure out what good it does to a NY Breeder to pay an open company award to anyone other than the breeder. Why should someone that doesn't invest in the program by breeding a horse, get any type of stipend from the fund. I am sure that when the open company awards were first introduced, there was not any where near the amount of NY bred races. Thus, it may have been a good "mousetrap" to have a nY bred at the time. It seems needless now.

I would think that a study should be made to fine out if the open awards would be better used by giving the funds to Stallion owners that have horses sired by a stallion standing in NY win out of State. That seems to be a better advertising avenue and perhaps the money used will even be less that the money thrown away in the open awards program.

More importantly, NY breds would be more valuable by simply writing "NY Stallion Preferred" as a condition in a percentage of NY Bred races. This is as valuable as any one thing I can thing of that would lure more buyers of NY Breds that are really raised and grazed on the grass here with the money being paid to the NY Farms to do the raising and grazing on a full time basis.
Tuesday March 3, 2009 11:23:57 AM EDT

Comment by llsal
I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NYBREEDING. WHY IS A HORSE THAT WAS BRED IN KENTUCKY BUT FOALED IN NY CONSIDERED A NYBRED? HE IS A NY FOAL BUT NOT BRED IN NY. ALSO WITH THE STALLION SERIES IN NY. A KENTUCKY BREEDER CAN BRING HIS MILLIONAIRE MARE UP TO NY GET BRED TO ONE OF OUR TOP STALLIONS, GO BACK TO KENTUCKY AND FOAL IN KENTUCKY BUT YET BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE NY STALLION SERIES. OTHER THAN THE AWARDS MONEY I REALLY THINK THE NYBRED ASSOC. IS GEARED AGAINST THE SMALL BREEDER IN THE STATE.
Tuesday March 3, 2009 10:19:09 AM EDT

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